Class Specific Items

[Joel]

There come the part I dislike most ...

Class Specific items seems to be something people WANT to see.
For me it's more an annoyance thatn anything.

So is there a way to get a decent "flavored item" without dropping into the
so abusable and abused way of classic LoD ??

Ideas so far are :

-> having no class specific items.
-> having class specific items be craftable only from a base item subset. This means no uniquesets for them.

Any other ?

[Brother Laz]

Class-specific items are very hard to balance against non-class-specific items, because they are the exact same. You could add skill bonuses or staffmods to the class-specifics but prevent them from getting some desirable affixes from the affix pool , but in case of weapons it mostly only comes down to what does the most damage or what has the most skill bonuses.

I suggest leaving the class-specifics to all the sucky mods out there.

[kingpin]

You can also give class specific item's unique skills, stat bonus (that improves stat for a specific class), add special modifiers that do something's special. Also you could have a wider range for class specific items then it comes to modifiers, i.e use lower & higher possible mods than a normal non-class item can have.

[Joel]

Well, what about identity typed item ?
like templar item lowly boosting the length of the hit bonus ?
BM item increasing the effect of nearby monster, same for spellcaster and Shaelora items ???

so the item will not be that powerful per se and give an alternate bonsu to the char ?

I also think no uniques/sets of class specific items, but let ppl transmlute ONE given base item into a <slightly> modified one, only usable by their class.

[kingpin]

That sounds good,

I say add class spec unique/set items. You can do them in same way as you do the normal class items.

[Joel]

but how to prevent unqiue/sets ONLY for them ?
I don't want ppl to get access to normal or magic one beside cube ...

[Tyd]

ok, i'm no modder like the rest who posted herê *hi kingpin *.

but why do you dislike class specific items? personally i really like them, since they make the chars somewhat special. for example, the assassin claws in lod. without them, assassins would only have access to normal weapons and would walk around equipped like pals or barbs. with the claws they become something special and get a more assassin like feeling. same with pala shields. paladins in most RPG universes are holy knights which are masters of the sword and shield fight. so its just normal, that they maybe have accses to better shields than other classes.

and i don't think they are that overpowered in lod ^^.

[Joel]

but why do you dislike class specific items? personally i really like them, since they make the chars somewhat special. for example, the assassin claws in lod. without them, assassins would only have access to normal weapons and would walk around equipped like pals or barbs. with the claws they become something special and get a more assassin like feeling. same with pala shields. paladins in most RPG universes are holy knights which are masters of the sword and shield fight. so its just normal, that they maybe have accses to better shields than other classes.

the fact is that people ONLY use them latter on :|
and tha'ts crappy.

[Tyd]

maybe, but wheres the difference to everyone using the best sword in the game for example? or best crossbow (burize *hinthint* ^^). in the end, its the players desicion what he wants to use and if the players like the class specific items the most, why not?

[Brother Laz]

Well, what about identity typed item ?
like templar item lowly boosting the length of the hit bonus ?
BM item increasing the effect of nearby monster, same for spellcaster and Shaelora items ???

Son, that's runeword stuff. If said modifiers are useless, the class-specifics never get used. If they are too good, only they get used. One or the other turns useless.

As I said above, either you make them vastly different [skill bonuses vs resistances, for instance] or avoid using them at all.

Btw, you cannot increase the length of the hit bonus unless you put an aura on it that synergizes the monsters' gethit-skill length.

I also think no uniques/sets of class specific items, but let ppl transmlute ONE given base item into a <slightly> modified one, only usable by their class.

Sounds fake. Blizzard would never do this, and your goal is to be Equal Or Better Than Blizzard. There are also mods with recipes that generate uniques or set items, which is equally aftermarketish.

......

Class-specifics seriously break immersion. They are too similar between them and different types are too different. It makes one think there are only those seven classes and nothing else. It is just as no-no as using only character skills as monster skills, or games like Midtown Madness which had 10 totally different cars to drive, but all of the computer opponents drove one of those 10 cars as well.

......

Something else: class-specific items in important slots tend to sucker all other classes. Imagine class-specific armor with gosu defense, 50% above all other armor. Now imagine how much harder it will be for other classes to get equal defense, since you're balancing to-hit for characters with that uber class-specific armor.

Critical stats such as defense and damage should never favor one class over the other. All of my character skill trees include a way to boost damage, a way to reduce damage taken and something that etherealizes either the enemy, your minions or you. This is because these are powerful abilities and giving them to one class exclusively screws all other classes.

maybe, but wheres the difference to everyone using the best sword in the game for example?

After 4 years of LoD, it may be hard to believe but the purpose of a mod is to make more options viable than just the one overpowered one. The game is better off without a buriza or a Frozen Orb.

[Joel]

Son, that's runeword stuff. If said modifiers are useless, the class-specifics never get used. If they are too good, only they get used. One or the other turns useless.

Ok dad

As I said above, either you make them vastly different [skill bonuses vs resistances, for instance] or avoid using them at all.

So , I'm stuck with 2 options :

* no class specific
* a few class specific with special affix pool ??

[Brother Laz]

As long as the class-specifics are 1) very rare, 2) not sellable, 3) have a very different affix pool that is fairly balanced against the affix pool of the corresponding item [please god no off-weapon enhanced damage!], 4) each char has one such slot and it isn't body armor or weapon, go ahead.

Personally, I think it's a waste of time better spent on more important things [Shaelora, etc] .

[Joel]

so no class specific period

[ManaCraft]

As long as the class-specifics are 1) very rare, 2) not sellable, 3) have a very different affix pool that is fairly balanced against the affix pool of the corresponding item [please god no off-weapon enhanced damage!], 4) each char has one such slot and it isn't body armor or weapon, go ahead.

That's a rather strict interpretation of balance imo. All of the above rules can be broken to a certain extent without compromising the gameplay (though I agree that off-weapon damage is something to tread lightly with).

You only really need one thing to include class specific items in the game, and that's a decent tradeoff. If you can manage that, you're home free. In addition to the affix pool you also have the base item stats to work with, and automods if you're thinking about including any of those. There are plenty of possibilities, and I don't think it's quite as hard as you're making it seem.

I also think it's a shame that you're turning your back on class specific sets and uniques, cause this is where the real fun is at. Knowing that only one class can equip a certain item provides you with a ton of options with regards to item design that you wouldn't otherwise have. Sets that turn caster classes into powerful melee fighters but strip them of their mana at the same time, uniques that give melee classes powerful chance to cast effects, and so on and so forth. You basically have a guarantee that no other class will be equipping the items you're making, and this allows you to break the balance a little (or a lot in some cases) and do some really fun stuff. And then of course there's the extra flavor that class specific items bring to the game.

Just my humble opinion. I'm not a modder by any means, so make of it what you will. I very much look forward to playing your mod.


ManaCraft

[mishy23]

At first I kept class-specifics in my mod, but the only difference I added to them over the normal version of the item were that they have skill automods. (+1 to two skills)

Then i realized what a drag it would be to get an awesome drop and it to be ruined only because it was class-specific, so i took class-specifics out of my mod.

And in the end I took some of the automods i was going to put on class-specifics and put them on normal mods, this way if a cool sword drops with awesome +skills for barbarians, well its naot totally ruined for other classes, they can use the weapon, just dont benefit from the automods.

I think each class has 2 or 3 items that spawn automods of +skills or somethign very useful to that class, but none of these items are class-specific at all.

-mishy23