Storyline Possibilities

Information and updates for the Wheel of Time mod. If you have any questions or suggestions for the mod, please post them here. NOTICE: This project has been scrapped in lieu of the Shadow Empires mod.
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Fortitude
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Storyline Possibilities

Post by Fortitude » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:41 am

Here's an idea for the storyline.

The final battle is over, the Dark One has been sealed in his prison BUT the seals just aint good enough because he is breaking out again. (A rather simplified idea, im sure someone can come up with something better).

Each Act/Quest boss could be swapped with a member of the Forsaken (possibly mutated by the Dark One as the didnt get the job done the first time, this would save them all having the same graphics).

A few ideas for quests:

Act I
Den of Evil:
pretty much keep it the same but change the name to Winternight in reference to when Emonds field got its butt kicked in the first book.
Blood Raven:
Either make her a DarkFriend or possibly a Dark Lord(the Forsaken wannabes) who is gathering a force to attack.
Decard Cain:
Perhaps in the Final Battle Lews Therin was torn from Rands body and became a seperate entity. Having him as Cain will give an excuse for the useless fountain of information that no one else would know. You could say he was gentled(which is why he can't break free himself) and imprisoned and that the rescue attempt by the heroes is done because his knowledge is more important than any crimes.

Act II
Looking for Baal:
Instead of making it the Tomb of Tal Rasha, change it to the Eye of the World or Rhuiden(although Rhudien has already been found).
Arcane Sanctuary:
Pretty Sure Your doing this already but you could make this the Ways

ActIII
The Gidbin:
Change it to the Knife from Shadar Logarth and the Fetish who has it to Padan Fain. Instead of needing it to boost the spell protecting the docks tis just a raid to get the Knife of Fain and put it somewhere safe i.e. that glowing blue globe that appears when Ormus puts the Gidbinn on that pedastal.


Aaand thats all i got at the moment, hopefully this will get the creative juices flowing for all the other WOT fans....
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Little Eddie » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:13 am

ok..here I go!

This is a good idea, since we know that many of the seals were found, and many broken/ruined..If the final battle HAS occured and the dark one imprisioned again..but with a fewer number of seals and those seals not as effective as they are breaking down, then the objective is to finish the dark one forever..or possibly to beat him bad enough that the weakened seals are enough to hold him..

to add to Fortitude's story line:

Act 4: possibly an assult on Shayol Ghul (sp?), taking the battle to the enemy..

Act 5: the enemy escapes and reinvests himself at anothe place, A lonley mountian hidden in the blight gaurded by a small nation as a holy place..
Last edited by Little Eddie on Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Fortitude » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:16 am

Ok after a bit more thought I have come up with a better storyline:
The Final Battle is over, the Dark One has been defeated and his power/essence has been split up and sealed within three ter'angreal (the soulstones as if you didnt know). These ter'angreal have been stolen by three of the surviving forsaken who are slowly mutating/gaining power by having these items in their possession(i.e. turning into the Prime Evils). Their aim is to get at least one of these stones to a massive ter'angreal(the Worldstone) located somewhere in the blight beyond the borderlands (Harrogath), doing so will result in the restoration of the Dark Ones power and untold evil as the Shadow spreads throught the land. One of the Forsaken(Baal) makes it to the huge ter'angreal(WorldStone) and manages to get the ball rolling on the Dark One being released which forces Tyreal(the Creator? the Dragon Reborn?) to destroy it.

BlackHeart, I remember at one stage you were going to set up the Cow level as a sort of mini-Act, how about using it as a battleground where the heroes can finally face down the Dark One? Using some ter'angreal i.e. the cube, wirts leg(or a substitute) and a tome of TP, the heroes can enter the Dark One's prison and finally put the manner to rest! Seeing as the Dark One hasn't managed to escape using this 'optional' act fits rather nicely. The hero isn't forced to face the Dark One, but if he really wants to he can give it a go
(Make him reeeeallly nasty :firedevil: )

Seems a bit more interesting than a boring old seals weakening again story.
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Little Eddie » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:51 am

I was thinking of a good plot twist today..it is juat an idea I had, and I am not sure I like it yet..

but in the books they talk of Dreadlords, so these can be the act ending bosses..in act 4 you fight the Dark One and defeat him...but as he is ultimate evil and the creator is ultimate good..both are needed as a balance.. So the world gets a whole new slew of problems in act 5 and you must go destroy the creator also to bring balance back..

it has many holes and needs to be finished as a complete idea, but I thought it made a good story twist..

still not sure what I think of it though..hahahaha
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Fortitude » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:51 am

in the books they talk of Dreadlords, so these can be the act ending bosses
I don't think Dreadlords are really high up enough in the food chain to qualify as Act bosses. They are really just Forsaken wannabes, they'd be better as unique and super unique monsters.

Although your whole kill the Creator for balance thing seems interesting. Would you have a whole lot of 'Angelic' monsters to battle in Act V though?
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:19 am

After reading what has been presented so far I would like to interject some of my thoughts using some of the information provided.

First lets say that we are in new age directly following the age in witch the books are set. (Why because this allows us to concept a story line not governed by what has been written by R.Jorden whose work we can not hope to recreate in this mod but based on the out line and history of the wheel of times world.) So with this out look we can use ideas and concepts removed from what we know of the forces of light and darkness.

Let say that the Dark one is not at all what we believe say he is for example an alien intelligent trying to take over the plane of existents. And with his failure using the forsaken has decided to try brute force. Upon creating an unimaginable legion of trollocs and other nasty he unleashes them upon the plane of men. With heavy mutated forsaken to lead them and all but annihilates the forces of Light thus leaving small pockets of strong resistance to his complete control of the world, Heroes enter stage left {:-)

I like the idea of the optional of fighting the dark lord make him incredible nasty for thows stout of heart and strong of will. :scary:
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Little Eddie » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:50 am

A good idea Black Heart..as the frosaken are obviously not strong enough, and they get defeated time and again..the DarkLord mutates them to add to thier power and (this from a previous post of mine) begins another trolloc war, but it is led by these new forsaken and they have almost succeeded in the defeat of man..and so starts the new story, a hero (or group of heros in MP) must now find a way to save mankind.

Fortitude..after thought I agree too a point, the Dreadlords may be too weak to be the act ending guys, but also, in the books they are just mentioned, not really discussed..I do remember somewhere that the green ajah helped defeat the beings, and that all aes sedai were much stronger in the age of ledgends.this is why I feel they could possibly be used as a super monster class..we do not know enough, but do know that it took much power to defeat them..

anyway..I really like the whole new storyline idea, it gives a huge amount of freedom instead of just trying to recreate/use the existing one..
Once again....thank you all for listening to me ramble.....

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:00 am

Dread Lord is just dame sinister sounding and should be used if not just for that! We could incorporate them into super unique like the smith etc…

The green Ajah are known as the battle Ajha for their role in defeating the dread lords. I think that we could riveal the power spoken of in the age of legends in this mod I would like it to be harder than what vanilla LOD as I prefer a bit harder games.
Sometimes we win with greater firepower, through sheer numbers or more powerful weapons, but for the most part it is knowledge that defines our victories. Know something and it has lost its power over you.

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by reiyo_oki » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:13 pm

another thing that would be great as a boss or superunique would be Dragkhar... :twisted: Love those evil batwinged buggers. Or maybe Gholams? That might be a good replacement for Baal's Minions.

Reality is different for each person; What one person sees, another does not. It's all a matter of perspective. This is my reality, I'll live it as I choose.

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"Who desires peace should prepare for war."
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:23 pm

Both very good ideas but may have a problem obtaining graphics for them.
Sometimes we win with greater firepower, through sheer numbers or more powerful weapons, but for the most part it is knowledge that defines our victories. Know something and it has lost its power over you.

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by reiyo_oki » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:42 pm

actually...for the dragkhar you could use the myconid plugin from the keep's file center...as for the gholam...maybe one of the part-human creatures...a troll maybe? or an orc?
Last edited by reiyo_oki on Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reality is different for each person; What one person sees, another does not. It's all a matter of perspective. This is my reality, I'll live it as I choose.

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
"Who desires peace should prepare for war."
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Ishamael » Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:33 am

[quote=reiyo_oki";p="136955"]actually...for the dragkhar you could use the myconid plugin from the keep's file center...as for the gholam...maybe one of the part-human creatures...a troll maybe? or an orc?[/quote]

Doesn't the gholam look like ordinary people?
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by reiyo_oki » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:50 pm

not necassarily. In one of the earlier books it is large enough to pick up a human in one hand. I believe it is a shapeshifter, and it merely assumes human form to escape notice as much as possible...though this has no effect on those who can use the power...

Reality is different for each person; What one person sees, another does not. It's all a matter of perspective. This is my reality, I'll live it as I choose.

"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
"Who desires peace should prepare for war."
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Little Eddie » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:56 am

I have been rereading the series, and the only Gohlam I think mentioned so far was a human size guy, looking human to pass as a human, but he could distort his body to pass through tiny openings..they said that only a few were created because the forsaken were afraid of them also..

I have been thinking about the dreadlords, I think that they should be the act end guys now, that can explain the monster graphics..since we don't know what they look like yet, and make the forsaken some of the super-uniques..in the story line it could be that the dark lord has created new, more powerful dreadlords and THEY are the reason that humanity is being defeated..

so the quests are to find and defeat these Dreadlords to finish the game areas, and have the forsaken scattered around to help them fight..

my main thought in this is that the forsaken didn't win the last fight and so got demoted so to say..and the Dreadlords are the new power.
Once again....thank you all for listening to me ramble.....

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:22 am

Here is a good description of a Gholam
A non-descript man, slightly above average height. It flows as it moves and can squeeze through small cracks. Ordinary weapons don't hurt it, and the One Power has no effect on it. It feeds on blood, but lives to kill, especially the one who hurt it
Found onThe Wheel of Time Character Archive site.

Their information I have always found accurate.

As to the dread lords I don’t believe that they should be of that character status. The dreadlords were only people of great power shadow sworn not that much more powerful as say Mazrim Taim. They would make good area bosses
Sometimes we win with greater firepower, through sheer numbers or more powerful weapons, but for the most part it is knowledge that defines our victories. Know something and it has lost its power over you.

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Fortitude » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:33 pm

One thing that has always annoyed me about D2 is that when you finish the game you just get to start all over again, just with a higher difficulty. There has been no attempt at explaining this repetition of events, until now...
I got this idea after rereading this:
Let say that the Dark one is not at all what we believe say he is for example an alien intelligent trying to take over the plane of existents.
In the books it is mentioned quite frequently that there are many different planes of existence, so maybe after defeating Baal (The Dark One or whoever) Tyreal (or whoever) comes down and says: "Well done, I need to destroy the world stone blah blah blah, oh and by the way The Dark One may have been defeated here but it would be really good of you if you could just take this little red portal and travel to another version of this world and kill him there to, thanks"
Just gives a reason for all the deja vu.
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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Gwydon » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:50 am

What about letting Slayer into the story somehow... Maby randomly droping in trying to kill you?

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Avalanchez » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:06 pm

I had some thoughts about the General Storyline, but as i am not sure what is moddable and what not, i tried to stick with the general storyline from LOD.

for graphic sets and their resemblance to places in the books, i chose the following order:

Act I : Emonds Field / Two Rivers

Act II : Rhuidean / Aiel Waste

Act III : Cairhien / Cairhien
(That swampy theme would fit Ebou Dar better, but Cairhien is more on the way to the blight)

Act IV : Tel'aran'rhiod (From Caihrien to the Blight)
(gives at least a little explanation for the theme, and why you can only reach it by portals)

Act V: Fal Dara / Borderland (and into The Blight)


Since we only have huge endmonsters, forsaken are pretty much out of the question for endbosses, so who are they?
i thought about batteling all our favourite arch-enemies in new bodys The Great Lord (ups, sorry! ah...) The Dark One chose to give them.
I admit i have too much Aiel in my story (Act 1-3), but they are just so cool!


Act I : Emonds Field / Two Rivers

In the two rivers, the Dark One wants to build a base far from anyones eyes. Manetheren was a nice idea, but that time is long gone, and people just mind their own business. A few of the last Shaido Aiel however retreated here, where the Dark One found them and corrupted them further.
You encounter some of those aiel (Blood Raven & the Countess). Andariel herself is Sevannas Spirit in a new Body given to her by the Dark One, guarding one of the rebuilt exit points of the ways.
(gives a reason to go to Rhuidean, because Sevanna knows the Dark One wants to build an Aiel Army)

hints would sound like:
- Where the dragon first showed himself to all... (canyon of the magi, meaning the cliff not far from rhuidean where rand let it rain on the aiel clan chiefs)
- his first army will be OURS.
- a third time the Dragonwall will be crossed


Act II : Rhuidean / Aiel Waste

Once again the aiel shall conquer Cairhien, first time for justice, second for the Dragon, third time for the Dark One. Now the endurance of the threefold Land is really over, and this is their true destiny. At least that is what the Dark One told the few Aiel who didn't stay in Rhuidean and didn't follow the Dragon.
These Aiel are the new Captains of his armies.

who would fit in the waste, corrupting the Aiel... maybe one of the dead forsaken (Sammael? was he really dead?).


Act III : Cairhien / Cairhien

Cairhien was under heavy attack, few are still living, and you can just pick up the pieces and slay whatever comes your way. but the Dark Ones Captains (High Council) are still meeting, and you can stop the army there. However, You get told that to know what the Dark One is planning, you'd have to enter the World of Dreams.

mephisto is definitely a forsaken charakter... or better, black ajah. he looses a Ter'angreal (soulstone) wich opens the way into the World of Dreams.


Act IV : Tel'aran'rhiod (From Caihrien to the Blight)

The Dark One has a firm foot in the World of Dreams, where his minions gather everyone accidently drifting into Tel'aran'rhiod, so that they are tortured until they swear fealty to the Great Lord.
Izual and the Smith would be the leaders of his minions (Moghedien and..?) Why you would have to destroy the soulstone/drem-angreal i don't know, but then, i also didn't understand how leashed Moghedien could get out of Tel'aran'rhiod inclusive a'dam.

The pandemonium fortress resembles a bit the entrance to the durance of hate, so i thought, lets start there in Tel'aran'rhiod, to gather more informations about where to go from there.
since all gets fiery later on, let the dark one be in his underground cavern (it is inside a volcano right? i imagined it that way, when i read the books...), but in the world of dreams, there is a guardian (diablo, who hasn't guessed, but the Dark One never sleeps, so obvoiusly, you have not defeated him after slaying diablo)
what you learn however, is that the Dark One is just about to break free, and his scouts are already besieging Fal Dara

i would like some Questioners in diablos place... Asunawa maybe? or someone of the strange new fellows... Mordeith / Osan'gar / Aran'gar?


Act V: Fal Dara / Borderland (and into The Blight)

well, quite like LOD: Fal Dara is under siege, and you are about to challenge the Dark One in person... ALONE! go get him!



Some thoughts and quest stories in detail:

Act I :
an introduction to the waypoints would be nice. something that refers to the obelisk-like stones rand used.

Act II Darkness Quest:
on nightfall, you come in a village of an aiel sept who still live in the desert.
the village is build on old ruins, and nobody knows that underneath, an angreal can be found. so the player comes in, there are a few friendly aiel standing around, maybe you can even put flavie in there telling something about the old ruins where rand was once attacked by night, and then have monsters from all around closing in (like with the gidbin, only more monsters), and aiel fighting back.
after that, go into the cave under the city and get that angreal (viper amulet)

Act III Lam Esens Tomb:
I don't know if you kan place a portal there, like the mini-levels in Act V, but in an ancient Ruin there could be a Doorway-Shaped Angreal with Snakes carved around it. And there You find that Tribunal of the Snakes, telling you that you have to cross Tel'aran'rhiod to know your way and some other things.

Act V The Ancients:
Now, because this really is a dangerous scene, how about this being the 'reward' for meeting the Foxes and finding there something useful (class specific, like the reward from Anya for defrosting her)


I hope i could give some inspiration, and that there is something new in what i wrote. Sadly, i found the site after the computer crash, and i hope the new site is on soon (so that i stop making suggestions that are out of concept).

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:30 pm

First lets say that we are in new age directly following the age in witch the books are set. (Why because this allows us to concept a story line not governed by what has been written by R.Jorden whose work we can not hope to recreate in this mod but based on the out line and history of the wheel of times world.) So with this out look we can use ideas and concepts removed from what we know of the forces of light and darkness
for more information on story line try this topic. ;)
viewtopic.php?t=18852[url][/url]
Sometimes we win with greater firepower, through sheer numbers or more powerful weapons, but for the most part it is knowledge that defines our victories. Know something and it has lost its power over you.

The Shadow Has risen!!!! Warped Tiles

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Shaeen M'taal » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:46 am

Sorry for not posting this here the firs titme.. im new here..

I was thinking about WoT the other day after finishing Book 10, and reading some of "The World of The Wheel of Time" book guide background thing. Anyways, I thought "Since Aridhol's evil is a human-created evil that destroys/opposes that of the Dark One's evils, then why not base that as the major antagonist of the fourth age?" That way you can allow the assumption that Rand is going to eradicate or reseal the Dark One, without giving up all hope of a proper villain to drive the plot.

You can have Padan Fain spread the Aridhol/Shadar Logoth evil a little, and have it bud in the fourth age.. or you can have mere humans recreate it once again.. but that was more of a result of the Dark One the first time around... maybe the remaining dedicated dark friends(not the dabblers) would rally under fain.. and then get backstabbed and turn into.. madmen of a sort.?

It's a sketchy idea, but i think it'd be more original than a mere ressurection of the Dark One right after Rand manages to battle him..

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Shaeen M'taal » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:49 am

About dreadlords, i was under the impression that they were just darkfriend channelers... making the forsaken simply the high council of the dreadlords. The black ajah, and mazrim taim and his groupies would then qualify as dreadlords as well.. or maybe only when they lead battles?

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Shaeen M'taal » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:02 am

Avalanchez, i like some of your ideas. However, I dont understand why you want to make the swamplands part of cairhien just because its more toward the blight. When has proximity ever limited the Shadow? Perhaps ebou dar could be used, or maybe the drowned lands near/in mayene... Nothings ever been done in there so one has free reign over what happens there... Im thinking maybe have dark forces having been able to gather using the ways in mayene, while everyone else was busy sealing up the two rivers and fighting seanchan etc...

I'd like to stress again that the Dark One may be the ultimate evil.. but not neccesarily the only evil. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn are considered different enough from humans to be considered evil (though they agreed to some sort of truce... but its interesting to note that they, as well as the dark one, live outside of the pattern). Also, there is the aridhol evil.. sufficiently opposed to the dark one's evil to cancel it out.. how rand cleansed the taint.

But I like the other idea of having the dark one split into three essences because he's too outside of the patternish to be utterly destroyed..

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Black Heart » Wed Jan 07, 2004 10:46 am

Welcome to our forums Shaeen M'taal

very good ideas ill pass them on to bart who is writing our story line ;)

please dont muti post just use the edit button on the top right corner :)
Sometimes we win with greater firepower, through sheer numbers or more powerful weapons, but for the most part it is knowledge that defines our victories. Know something and it has lost its power over you.

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Avalanchez » Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:08 pm

[quote=Shaeen M'taal";p="147898"]Avalanchez, i like some of your ideas. However, I dont understand why you want to make the swamplands part of cairhien just because its more toward the blight. [/quote]
it just fitted in the 'Aiel conquering Cairhien again' plot.

[quote=Shaeen M'taal";p="147898"]
I'd like to stress again that the Dark One may be the ultimate evil.. but not neccesarily the only evil. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn are considered different enough from humans to be considered evil (though they agreed to some sort of truce... but its interesting to note that they, as well as the dark one, live outside of the pattern). Also, there is the aridhol evil.. sufficiently opposed to the dark one's evil to cancel it out.. how rand cleansed the taint.
[/quote]
right, sorry.
Aelfinn and Eelfinn i would have to look up, what were they again? i would speculate on the snakeish/foxish thingies... snakes would come in handy, of course, but i would not know enough of them to say they qualify as evil.

The evil of Shadar Logoth is cool, but somewhat immaterial. in diablo, who do you want to slay to get rid of it?
furthermore, an explanation has to be found where those huge endmonsters come from. or maybe you plan to battle only humans (no sarcasm here, it _could_ work!). i just expected the dark one more to be able to transform and mutate human beings into trollocs, pit spawns and diablos.
imo more a (very nice) quest plot, slaying padan fain.

[quote=Shaeen M'taal";p="147898"]
Im thinking maybe have dark forces having been able to gather using the ways in mayene, while everyone else was busy sealing up the two rivers and fighting seanchan etc...
[/quote]
another point: in a very distant future, would there be distinct seanchan? now that rand prepares for peace and people generally get along well, mat married the seat of the nine moons etc...


Black Heart: i'm aware you plan the (end of the) next age, however, i thought as many references to the books as possible would be nice. anyways, you would have to imagine how places (an societies as Aes Sedai) would look after Tarmon Gai'don.
The Dark One surely will have lost power (that's why i thought it possible to fight him hand-to-hand), but will Rand destroy him completely? wouldn't that destroy the wheel of time?

but i see... that's exactly the type of speculation you want to avoid, right?

well, maybe it is an age without the dark one, but some greedy aes sedai / asha'man want to bring him back at his old volcano-pit, because that place and the blight in general would really fit good with burning lava themes and the worldstone chamber.

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Re: Storyline Possibilities

Post by Shaeen M'taal » Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:35 am

Thanks for telling me about the edit button Blackheart.

The Aelfinn and Eelfinn are indeed the snakes and foxes. There is considerable information about them on this website:

http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark ... ndane.html

Just read through that and follow the links that pertain to the aelfinn and eelfinn. I found out a lot that I totally missed reading through the books.. i didnt even realize they were reffered to as the snakes and foxes...

As for how the Aes Sedai would be after Tarmon Gaidon, i think they would be dissolved. All the other aes sedai groups i would think would be enough to completely uproot the power of the aes sedai, and i think most of the manipulation of the tower came from the black ajah's constant presence (in fact i think the black ajah lead to the founding of the tower itself, based on the World of the Wheel of Time's description of its founding). I think all of the different channeling groups plus the male channelers would form a coalition that would slowly evolve into a new aes sedai kinda thing.. i dunno if theyd opt to stay with the name aes sedai.. Perhaps they would.

Oh, and for the whole thing woith the Dark One's power mutating things, the DO only furthered manipulation through genetics. Aginor (the forsaken thats reincarnated as Osan'gar) was the one who created the trollocs draghkar gholam grolm torm (not sure about those last two) through genetic manipulation. In fact he turned to the dark just to have free reign over his expiriments. The fades were offspring of the trollocs and humans, i think.. but i dont remember. That was the dark one's doing... Not sure how much all that matters.. but if we can factor some sort of genetic thing into the mix we migth be able to explain the twisted monsters a little better.

And alavanchez, thanks for explaining the cairhien thing, i missed that the first time i read through your post.
Last edited by Shaeen M'taal on Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:44 am, edited 3 times in total.

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