So... buyable runes

[DemonicAngel]

I dont even see the need to buy runes seeing as how they are so commonly found in drops, but if you want to make them buyable then i would at least reccomend you make them UBER expensive, like 100k for a El Rune or something.

Which means you won't be able to buy them until you wouldn't need to buy them anyway. Which makes the whole thing basically pointless. Unless, as Laz pointed out, you want some higher rune and want to buy a bajillion Els just for the purpose of cubing. You'd never buy an El rune just because you need an El rune. Putting the prices very high just encourages things like what Laz described happening. It basically guarantees it.

[pza]

They'd probably go insane before reaching Ber, thus solving the problem.

no. they'll start complaining that it takes too much time to create zod+ runes. they'll start QQ and QQ and QQ and QQ topics and more topics... until laz makes every rune buyable at every merchant for a price of 500 gold each.

[DemonicAngel]

That's why El runes should be cheap, and each rune should get exponentially more expensive. Too bad there's not a way to make runes be unaffected by -%Vendor Prices.

[Sorky]

Just an observation of this thread, not fire kindling.

Most of you already know the facts given in my post. It is more of a reminder of why so many responses were biased as to which way their vote went.


I believe there is a fundamental problem brought up in this thread and others like it concerning changes to this game. The problem is, this game has different play styles depending on whether you are a sp player or a realm player. There are 2 sp types, those with plugy and those without plugy, and there are 2 realm types, sc and hc. Each has different needs and wants as per the difficulty of finding, storing, and or creating certain items.

I play only realm hc as i like the challenge and the camaraderie of other players teaming for quests and the general "help the new player attitude".

IMHO Laz should not be bothered with the concerns of those people who use plugy, as the game is already compromised to much by its use. They can, if they choose to, get all the items they need at any time.
I also use udieto for testing new builds and it is great for that, but building or creating items is so easy that to make any rules or game changes based on sp plugy use, seems like a real waste of brain power.

Single players do not have periodic ladder wipes, so items accumulate over the passing of hours played. Thus resolving some of their item issues. This also happens with non ladder realm players, of which I have not seen any for this mod. It is still easy for sp playes to dupe items by simple file editing etc.(not saying you all do, just that it is easy).

This leaves Ladder Realm players of which I have the most interest.

SC and HC builds and play styles are vastly different, as you are aware of. As is the availability of all items collected over a given period of time.
Every death on HC can make a huge dent on a players inventory of his/hers best items. Some of the uber levels are not farmed as in SC because the reality of a death and the corresponding loss of items is all to real.

Gold farming is a must(although boring). There is never enough gold, what with keeping your mercs alive, and gambling. All farming is done by high level characters, as it takes a high level character to wear the best gear and to not die in the area to be farmed. I have a set of crafting gear, gold find gear, and uber quest gear, all on the same character. With enough time I will have a character for each. Yes space is a problem, but frequent muling helps with that. What With the radiance Pally getting a gf nerf, my gf Sin is about equal to him in gf.

BTW I chose to make a gf set of gf gear instead of gambling gear because I do not see much 'lower vendor cost' items. Plus I still need gold.

I believe rune words are used more in HC, as the areas to get some of the best items are hard to farm because of the danger of losing your character.

Items with the correct sockets are also in short supply as is the max socket item for the cube recipe.

As for runes for sale. Unless you have a High level character to farm gold, you wont be able to afford them, especially ladder starts.

But:
Farming gold is already an established occupation, so buying runes will give players who cannot get to FV or high lvl rune drop places, a chance to acquire some. It's the price of the different runes that seems to be the difficult part.

I think higher level runes are in short supply depending on which player category you fall in. I know I have never had most of the top 10 runes on my mule at any given time. Without rune and gear trading, we on hc would be pretty much up a creek.


This game already has a low item sale price on all items, thus keeping gold find as a must have occupation. You can keep it like that by keeping all added items to have a very low sale price, thus keeping economics the same. In fact having gold find to be such a needed skill and also having 'lower vendor prices' seems to be some sort of contradiction.

Taking items you collect with a high level character and giving it to a lower level one is a way of life in D2, it is one of the reasons we play this game.


As I said at the start, just an observation, from a passionate player.

Thanks for keeping my interest in D2 BrotherLaz

[Delreich]

I'll probably make the lower runes buyable... the only question is, what is there to prevent people from stacking -95% vendor prices, buying a few billion Els at 100 gold each, then cubing them up to Xar? It would be utterly boring, but if this is what it takes, people will do it...

There's exponential growth to prevent them, as I said earlier.

It's impossible to cube a zod from els within the limits of the game. Even if you could (aquire and) cube one rune pair every second, it'd take you 136 years of play time.
In fact, it's unlikely that anyone would want to cube even ten steps up, as that is already a thousand transmutations.

Even if you make Zods available, and we assume some unreasonable 1 second per rune bought, 2 seconds per cubing, it would take about 14 hours to get a xar.
I'm pretty sure both of those steps takes at least twice as long, and there are other steps as well, like refilling the wallet (16k zods...), so I don't think that's anything to worry about.
Whining isn't at all unlikely to happen though, but that's true for just about anything, it seems.

And yes, this is exactly why the current downgrade is ridiculous, and you're absolutly right to change it.



@Sorky: There is no legal realm for any mod, so if there's anything that shouldn't be considered it's realm play.

[DemonicAngel]

@Sorky: There is no legal realm for any mod, so if there's anything that shouldn't be considered it's realm play.

Open bnet/hamachi?

I think he just means singleplayer or multiplayer.

[Custodian]

I personally am against this.

I do use plugy, but not for sharing. just for the increased stash size. i like to be able to have gems/runes on one page and items on another to keep my cube empty.

I've played several different mods and this one has held my interest the best. I believe it is the challenge that i like. And making runes buyable would make atleast the mid levels (40-80) far too easy. After that point i find uniques and crafted are better. in the early stages of the game, runes drop frequently (at least they have been for me) and besides...buying them at that stage would be too expensive. This game, and Diablo2 is all about farming. Making the runes shoppable would just ruin that aspect and the sole point would be just level to 120 then make a new character.

[oneillz808]

I personally am against this.

I do use plugy, but not for sharing. just for the increased stash size. i like to be able to have gems/runes on one page and items on another to keep my cube empty.

I've played several different mods and this one has held my interest the best. I believe it is the challenge that i like. And making runes buyable would make atleast the mid levels (40-80) far too easy. After that point i find uniques and crafted are better. in the early stages of the game, runes drop frequently (at least they have been for me) and besides...buying them at that stage would be too expensive. This game, and Diablo2 is all about farming. Making the runes shoppable would just ruin that aspect and the sole point would be just level to 120 then make a new character.

thats good. its what we want. we DONT want to be farming.

we want to level to our last level with runewords, to see what kind of builds there are with runewords instead of with uniques.

[Smiling Hobo]

Wouldn't this essentially eliminate any reason for going to Fautzinville, other than for the level challange?

*Nibbles on kitten*

[oneillz808]

yes, which would be a good thing. like, who goes in there [assassins] and like, who doesnt [the rest.]

[nimrod]

Wouldn't this essentially eliminate any reason for going to Fautzinville, other than for the level challange?

*Nibbles on kitten*

No, you would still get more high runes from farming fautzinville and buying runes, than from farming kurast and buying runes.

It will also make farming fautzinville in destruction more effective, because you'd get more money.

However, it's impossible to balance.
The only way it could be balanced is if it would require more money than the character can carry, so a xar for example would require you to have at least 80% item cost reduction (which isn't very easy to get).

[pza]

yes, which would be a good thing. like, who goes in there [assassins] and like, who doesnt [the rest.]

your argumentation sounds like:

"make runes buyable because only assassins can go to fauztinville."

both the observation and the consequence are wrong.
runes are very findable everywhere else than fauztinville. terror fauztin is really no enemy for any charclass.

also, this has nothing to do with making runes buyable, since assassins (if they really had a real advantage in getting runes) still would have the advantage. no, runes are not only findable through farming or whatever, i already said that and everyone ignored it. runes are the less farmable items that exists, besides white/grey items.

those items are very findable by simply playing the game. finding them is a real by-product of making new chars, having fun with the game. also, the droprate of runes is everything else than low.

[DemonicAngel]

Wouldn't this essentially eliminate any reason for going to Fautzinville, other than for the level challange?

*Nibbles on kitten*

No, it would put Fautzinville back where I think Laz wants it: Somewhere can people can go if they want to be challenged, but not that they feel they have to go if they're ever going to want to use any higher-level runeword. This will probably greatly reduce the amount of QQ'ing that Fautzinville is too hard, because now nobody is forced to enter.

[oneillz808]

yes, which would be a good thing. like, who goes in there [assassins] and like, who doesnt [the rest.]

your argumentation sounds like:

"make runes buyable because only assassins can go to fauztinville."

both the observation and the consequence are wrong.
runes are very findable everywhere else than fauztinville. terror fauztin is really no enemy for any charclass.

also, this has nothing to do with making runes buyable, since assassins (if they really had a real advantage in getting runes) still would have the advantage. no, runes are not only findable through farming or whatever, i already said that and everyone ignored it. runes are the less farmable items that exists, besides white/grey items.

those items are very findable by simply playing the game. finding them is a real by-product of making new chars, having fun with the game. also, the droprate of runes is everything else than low.

ok good. you got me there, pza.

now, lets start discussing uniques before somebody starts talking about a build that involves runewords.

[pza]

Wouldn't this essentially eliminate any reason for going to Fautzinville, other than for the level challange?

*Nibbles on kitten*

No, it would put Fautzinville back where I think Laz wants it: Somewhere can people can go if they want to be challenged, but not that they feel they have to go if they're ever going to want to use any higher-level runeword. This will probably greatly reduce the amount of QQ'ing that Fautzinville is too hard, because now nobody is forced to enter.

wouldn't the logical consequence of this arguement be: removing the rune drop bias from fauztinville and set it to some easier level, say cow level? (instead of making runes buyable...)

[PwnyExpress]

ok good. you got me there, pza.

now, lets start discussing uniques before somebody starts talking about a build that involves runewords.

I think its funny how you always pull that card when PZA proves you wrong/disagrees with you.

Grand, man, GRAND!

[DemonicAngel]

Wouldn't this essentially eliminate any reason for going to Fautzinville, other than for the level challange?

*Nibbles on kitten*

No, it would put Fautzinville back where I think Laz wants it: Somewhere can people can go if they want to be challenged, but not that they feel they have to go if they're ever going to want to use any higher-level runeword. This will probably greatly reduce the amount of QQ'ing that Fautzinville is too hard, because now nobody is forced to enter.

wouldn't the logical consequence of this arguement be: removing the rune drop bias from fauztinville and set it to some easier level, say cow level? (instead of making runes buyable...)

Pza, either one would achieve the desired effect.

But your suggestion also gives an other good side effect: a real reason to go into the cow level, because it currently has no bias and no ubercharm.


I'm just arguing for the selling of runes, because, I want runes to be sold. But of course I realize it has to be balanced and that all side effects must first be considered.

[oneillz808]

ok good. you got me there, pza.

now, lets start discussing uniques before somebody starts talking about a build that involves runewords.

I think its funny how you always pull that card when PZA proves you wrong/disagrees with you.

Grand, man, GRAND!

and i think its funny how you didnt add anything to this discussion that we were having.

Grand, man, GRAND!

[DemonicAngel]

Let's keep it on topic; even though we've talked this topic into overkill...

i want to see who else wants to try and embarass me over the internet.

Do it in the Off Topic forum, k?

[oneillz808]

Let's keep it on topic; even though we've talked this topic into overkill...

hey demonic, im all for that.

i want to see who else wants to try and embarass me over the internet.

[Datharaur]

Just a quick comment. "I don't like the idea of buying runes so nobody should be able to buy runes," "I can clear Fauztinville in 2 minutes to find any rune I want," and "Storage space isn't a problem for me because I use PlugY," are not compelling reasons for precluding the sale of runes. If you object to the sale of runes in your own single-player game, then don't buy runes.

Some of us enjoy playing mods because they offer different experiences from the one Blizzard offers. Differing side quests, altered game effects, varied economies, etc. are all a part of that.

Most things in the game can be bought/gambled, and the reason for excluding runes is arbitrary. If Laz is looking for a sink for gold, perhaps offering an unidentified rune for sale in the gambling window, which is treated just like any other sort of gambling, could satisfy everyone.

[oneillz808]

Just a quick comment. "I don't like the idea of buying runes so nobody should be able to buy runes," "I can clear Fauztinville in 2 minutes to find any rune I want," and "Storage space isn't a problem for me because I use PlugY," are not compelling reasons for precluding the sale of runes. If you object to the sale of runes in your own single-player game, then don't buy runes.

Some of us enjoy playing mods because they offer different experiences from the one Blizzard offers. Differing side quests, altered game effects, varied economies, etc. are all a part of that.

Most things in the game can be bought/gambled, and the reason for excluding runes is arbitrary. If Laz is looking for a sink for gold, perhaps offering an unidentified rune for sale in the gambling window, which is treated just like any other sort of gambling, could satisfy everyone.

thats another problem.

what one person has is what another person secretly wants.

plugy, no plugy. mac vs windows. making runes buyable, or not making runes buyable.

laz-y already has a ton of features in this mod, this rune-buying feature isnt going to make a big difference.

sorry demy, i guess i always pull that grand card out on you.

[DemonicAngel]

I agree with you, Datharaur, but then it wouldn't be balanced, as lower runes would likely be too expensive and higher runes would probably be way underpriced and too easily gotten.

We're not really arguing whether to include it anymore, but rather whether or not it can be balanced if it is included.

And does anyone know if runes would be able to be gambled? What is an "unidentified rune"? You don't have to identify runes. Are we just talking about a blank rune? Could the same be done for perfect gems, with a Rainbow Stone graphic in the gambling window?

Edit: Damn people who post while I'm posting, making me have to edit it and make it clear who I'm replying to...

[Datharaur]

I agree with you, Datharaur, but then it wouldn't be balanced, as lower runes would likely be too expensive and higher runes would probably be way underpriced and too easily gotten.

We're not really arguing whether to include it anymore, but rather whether or not it can be balanced if it is included.

And does anyone know if runes would be able to be gambled? What is an "unidentified rune"? You don't have to identify runes. Are we just talking about a blank rune? Could the same be done for perfect gems, with a Rainbow Stone graphic in the gambling window?

First, the price of an unidentified rune could be derived from character level in such a way as to make it more balanced. Others wiser than I am can figure out the details.

Second, I guess my idea of balance isn't quite the same as it is for some. To me being able to buy runes has nothing to do with balance. In theory, if I could find the rune "in the wild," being able to buy it in a shop is simply a matter of convenience and not balance. If I've played the game enough to acquire the gold to do some gambling or shopping for a specific item, then there really is no reason why I shouldn't be able to. I can understand that shop owners wouldn't have any of the elite gear (including runes) laying around, but that is no reason why Hell-level merchants might not have a lum rune, for example, laying around for trade.

Third, in the real world, how much any given rune is worth comes down to what the buyer and seller feel is a fair price. The problem here is determining the comparative value of runes; I'm sure there are high level runes which are arguably less valuable than runes of a lower level. Rarity alone does not justify a value. Utility is hard to measure as it is subjective. In the a meaningful economy has to take both into account. And with the multiple attitudes (towards plugy alone) there is no simple way to do this, is there? This lends itself towards gambling, rather than purchasing... but that makes it less useful for finding the exact rune you want.

Fourth, if the sole reason for this is that Laz is looking for a place to dump gold, perhaps he should instead look at the problem of ridiculous amounts of gold find first. Not that this means anything to the plugy players, mind you... you can't balance the game for them when plugy breaks it, so you really shouldn't even try. (Laz, if you read this, I don't find it a personally problem since I only play single-player druid and a single-player sorc, but judging from the comments here, radiance and GF builds are an issue; if you're going to fix the economy, you have to do something about them first. If you are addressing it, just ignore me.)

Fifth, gambling runes could appear as a simple gray slab of stone in the gambling inventory. Rainbow stones could be used for gambling gems; there's really no reason not to. As with my first point, I'm just throwing this as an idea out there; I don't have the technical knowledge of whether it would work or not.

[Brother Laz]

Except PlugY is already an accepted cheat, and much of the game is already balanced around it because everyone uses it. Without PlugY I'd add things like affix transfer and clickable stands that drop runes, but balancing the game for non-PlugY users would completely break it for PlugY users. It is currently somewhere in the middle.

As for fixing the economy: removing GF% from Radiance is easy; getting rid of all the -% vendor prices items already floating around, unfortunately, is not.