So... buyable runes

[Skeleon]

so it is "impossible" to be so good like them without...

Which is why I'm happy playing Median SP-only...
I don't really need any competition or stress or anything. Got enough of that in RL atm.
If you look at the skills, it's obvious that Median is balanced for SP, anyway.

but i dont complain about how easy it is with plugy..

Yeah, I don't mind people using it or anything (after all, I use UDieToo to test new skills before trying a new build, so I'm a cheater, too), but I don't like it if Laz balances the game towards PlugY. It's not "officially" supported, I don't use it and I still want to be able to have a good time playing this mod (which is why I also appreciate the drop rate changes, for example).

If you forget about PlugY for a moment, imho there is nothing that would speak against making runes buyable/gamblable. Sure, the Paladin would have a slight edge in midgame. But after all, most endgame gear is unique/set anyway, because we want to stuff our sockets with additional gems/runes/jewels.
So it wouldn't really make the Paladin unfair towards the other chars in the long run.

[Logger_120]

I've been thinking and I am firmly against buying runes but I can see the need for a gold sink and think that gambling could runes could be a possibility if it is possible. The base price should reflect the chances of getting mid and high level runes; ie easy to gamble Zod then more expensive or tough to gamble Um then pretty cheap.

[Hans]

I remember playing a mod that you can gamble runes. I think the mod was Requiem of Sorrow.

[Lucia Ellan]

I agree with rune buying... but, NOT for High-End runes!
How about just till Lo(or something you wish, but I think Lo is ENOUGH HIGH) and even more expensive on higher rune (about 3500k), and cheaper on lower rune (about 10k)?

[xMeox]

without pluggy nobody will by a lo rune for 3,5M gold... for that money you normaly can gamble a few endgame items..
and its much easier to farm a lo rune (or a higher one) than farm 3,5M gold (except with paladin or high end goldfarm equipt..)

[Lucia Ellan]

You're right, framing Lo or higher is easy, but it takes some time: buying means you'll get that rune instantly. (of course, if you're farming GOLDS to buy that rune, it's another story....)

[rickcarson]

You're right, framing Lo or higher is easy, but it takes some time: buying means you'll get that rune instantly. (of course, if you're farming GOLDS to buy that rune, it's another story....)

Hmm... I wanted to quote your sig... learning English from these forums sounds to me like... I dunno... the mind boggles.

One thing that occurred to me the moment I saw this, was that perhaps you don't necessarily need to have all the runes available in all acts/difficulties. E.g in Act 1, you can only buy El and Eld.

Something else that has occurred to me is that if you have a component that is arbitrarily expensive (e.g. 1 million) then you can scale up the 'cost' of buying the rune up past the limit of the amount of gold you can buy.

Of course, people will object that other people could dupe the component... but so what? Surely if they'd do that, they'd just dupe the rune itself anywhere.

But I think the problem of reducing vendor prices is interesting. If there was a rune that was 40mil, and you had 80% price reduction, then you'd just have to pay 8mil for it. Oh wait, that's still beyond the limit.

I wonder if people would end up with a set of crafting gear in the stash and also a set of vendor reduction gear. For single players, that is going to put quite a strain on their space, yet again PlugY users have a huge advantage.

I don't think there is any way to get around that. Players using PlugY are just going to have a huge advantage when it comes to buying runes. But hey, no one is holding a gun to their heads forcing them to use it. And I admit that inventory management is probably one of the most tedious aspect of these games, second only to farming.

Anything that reduces farming is a good thing in my book.

Also, if I knew that I could just buy the rune back later, I'd be a lot more likely to do the 1:1 rune downgrade now if there is a runeword I want to try out. And I'd be a lot more trigger happy on upgrading runes and other factors that would free up space in my inventory.

So, in summary buyable runes are:

• A gold sink (good)
  A way to free up inventory space (good)
  A way to reduce farming (good)

If people are concerned about other players (there seems to be a lot of hand wringing about what _other_ people _might_ do some people just need to chillax) abusing the cube recipes that use runes (Jewelcrafting?), how about just not selling those particular runes?

Moreover, if you can buy runes, why bother with rune upgrade or downgrade recipes?

As oneill808 has pointed out, even the top end runes aren't game breaking, since top end uniques and sets are much better than top end runewords, since the uniques have slots free, and runewords don't.

So buyable runes isn't IMBA in the early game, and it isn't IMBA in the late game either.

[pza]

I wonder if people would end up with a set of crafting gear in the stash and also a set of vendor reduction gear. For single players, that is going to put quite a strain on their space, yet again PlugY users have a huge advantage.

So, in summary buyable runes are:

• A way to free up inventory space (good)

[/quote]

nice contradicion

and, btw. you get RUNES by playing the game normally. there's no way to increase chance of finding runes, so farming is disencouraged. for GOLD you need to to wear a heavy amount of extragold amounts on your equipment, and therefore must have an alreadyworking char cleaning the areas that give the highest amounts of gold. that means farming.

buyable runes INCREASE farming. but only CHESTS & CHAMPIONS farming. so really boring areas.

and runes beeing a gold sink would reduce the use of a merc even more. because if he dies, you will think twice if you'll revive him.

As oneill808 has pointed out, even the top end runes aren't game breaking, since top end uniques and sets are much better than top end runewords, since the uniques have slots free, and runewords don't.

who is oneill808 to be able to say that all runewords are teh uzelezz and teh only pwnage iz teh uniks?
if so, atlantis would be totally underpowered with 5 skills and 600 stats, aswell as other stats. and triune would serve nothing, having already nearly 3000 max elemental damage on a single piece of equipment.
but of course, they don't have sockets to fill with duped/hacked jewels.

[oneillz808]

As oneill808 has pointed out, even the top end runes aren't game breaking, since top end uniques and sets are much better than top end runewords, since the uniques have slots free, and runewords don't.

who is oneill808 to be able to say that all runewords are teh uzelezz and teh only pwnage iz teh uniks?
if so, atlantis would be totally underpowered with 5 skills and 600 stats, aswell as other stats. and triune would serve nothing, having already nearly 3000 max elemental damage on a single piece of equipment.
but of course, they don't have sockets to fill with duped/hacked jewels.

ROFFLELIMAO

ill tell you who am i to be able to say;

its the simple fact that EVERYONE here ALWAYS goes for the uniques/sets/rares/crafted items BECAUSE of their empty sockets;

to put in jewels and runes

with RUNEWORDS, you obviously cant do that.

[pza]

yeah, still, just because you cant put stuff in runewords , it doesn't mean they are inferior! how can you dare to say that? not everyone goes for uniqs/whatever, runewords can also be a better choice.

[oneillz808]

i dare say that because everyone DOES go for uniques and whatever.

robe of steel was all the rage, and it still is, just not as popular as before. now a similar alternative to that has replaced its popularity; atlantis.

[pza]

oh, well, wait, isn't atlantis a runeword? no, can't be. it wouldn't be popular, if it was.

forget it, not everyone is hot on runewords like you, and please take your blinkers of.

edit: well, i'm stopping collecting +1 just to argue with you. if runewords would be "teh uzelezz" as you're telling us, they wouldn't exist, and neither would be used. maybe laz can make a version just for you, where all items are uniques.

[oneillz808]

atlantis - thai lah vith thai nas thai

100% Chance to cast level 40 Arcane Torrent when you Die
+(3 to 5) to All Skills
+10% Bonus to Summoned Minion Life
+(321 to 340)% Enhanced Defense
+(201 to 300) to Strength
+(201 to 300) to Dexterity
All Resists +(71 to 80)%

im pretty sure its a runeword, and im also pretty sure i wont cause any car crashes.

[enkephalin07]

That certainly is a nice piece of gear, and perfectly balanced at lvl 110. It looks at least as attractive as sets, if not moreso, to someone playing beyond endgame.

But not all of us are interested in playing beyond endgame. 'Endgame' means just that; you've beaten Baal on Destruction, faced all the challenges, and so it's time to retire the character and try something else. The only reasons to repeat the same things is either to start fresh and see if you can do it better, or to continue to load up on trinkets to twink your next character and grease all their challenges. The victories only get cheaper after that point.

The beauty of uniques is that you can strategically put together your own build-specific set from the beginning, and have a stable, working eq configuration throughout, one that develops with you through tier upgrades and affix bonuses. The beauty of rares is that you can find a prize that's highly powerful, highly useful, and highly unexpected. The beauty of class crafts is a combination of those; you partly know what you're going to get to work with and partly open for pleasant surprises. I really hope to see more of that from 1.57 generic crafts (and at req levels attainable through the whole game.)

[Delreich]

I wonder if people would end up with a set of crafting gear in the stash and also a set of vendor reduction gear. For single players, that is going to put quite a strain on their space, yet again PlugY users have a huge advantage.

True, however the only thing that requires mass crafting points is rune up-/downgrading, and with buyable runes those aren't needed anymore, so you don't really need (much) crafting gear.

As oneill808 has pointed out, even the top end runes aren't game breaking, since top end uniques and sets are much better than top end runewords, since the uniques have slots free, and runewords don't.

I don't get this. Surely people around here have enough brains to take open sockets (and what could be put in them) into consideration when comparing items?
I at least can't find any non-sacred unique that even comes close to Unity for any char not interested in spell damage, nor can I find any non-sacred unique throwing axe that rivals Berith.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Heck, even oneillz constantly harps on about how awesome Victory and Emperor is.
As for sacred items or rares and crafts, non of those are easy to come by, sacreds because they're sacreds and rares/crafts because there are near-infinite possibilities and only some are good.


Slightly OffT now...

Ah... people who don't use sets and uber rares? Or are you saying that the charms are so powerufl you can just run around naked? (Bad mental image! Attempting to scrub! Requires more bleach for the brain! Aaiieee!!!!)

It may be just me, but when I start a new character, they start at level one (I kid you not), and to my continual amazement don't come equipped with a complete set of uber items. Maybe I downloaded the wrong file, or my copy of median is broken?

//shakes box, hears rattling sound.

Post of the week, easily.

[oneillz808]

I don't get this. Surely people around here have enough brains to take open sockets (and what could be put in them) into consideration when comparing items?
I at least can't find any non-sacred unique that even comes close to Unity for any char not interested in spell damage, nor can I find any non-sacred unique throwing axe that rivals Berith.
I could go on, but I think you get the point. Heck, even oneillz constantly harps on about how awesome Victory and Emperor is.
As for sacred items or rares and crafts, non of those are easy to come by, sacreds because they're sacreds and rares/crafts because there are near-infinite possibilities and only some are good.

i constantly harp on because i know what works [for me, at least]. and i make trends.

robe of steel was definitely what used by EVERYONE in previous patches, but when laz 'nerfed' it, people started to search for an alternative similar to robe of steel. oh low and behold, came ATLANTIS, which oddly enough was not talked about much in the previous patches.

uniques you can use before level 11 when you can actually use runewords provided you have met the requirements. and you can use it AFTER because the low runewords are obviously not much better than the uniques because you cant fill it up with jewels.

back to atlantis; its level requirement is at lvl one hundred ten.
robe of steel - lower.

[DemonicAngel]

True, however the only thing that requires mass crafting points is rune up-/downgrading, and with buyable runes those aren't needed anymore, so you don't really need (much) crafting gear.

They'll still be needed... you might want to upgrade to the next rune instead of paying thousands or even millions for it.

[oneillz808]

oh did i forget to mention that not everyone CAN farm fauztinville; in terror.

and the chance of finding a rune is like trying to gamble for that one specific unique that you want.

[DemonicAngel]

I can farm it, but find it boring. Plus, I find it unproductive, because I have not found very many high runes.

But I've said all of that before...

That's why I vote for the selling of runes, but not at the prices originally suggested by Laz.

[oneillz808]

I can farm it, but find it boring. Plus, I find it unproductive, because I have not found very many high runes.

But I've said all of that before...

That's why I vote for the selling of runes, but not at the prices originally suggested by Laz.

exactly. the people who CAN farm it; dont find the IMPORTANT runes.

EVERYONE is obviously against the buying of runes because they CANNOT fill up their runewords with jewels.

they OBVIOUSLY dont see the potential that runewords have; VICTORY and EMPEROR, atlantis.

they only see boneclasp, robe of steel, toesie warmers, empyrean bands.

[Logger_120]

nor can I find any non-sacred unique throwing axe that rivals Berith.

I have to disagree with this. Berith is nice but since Barbs don't really need to worry about anything related to speed the only realy desirable mods are the uninterruptable attack, mid-range ed%, elemental dmg, and the -%reqs. I only nitpick here b/c I am trying to optimize my throw barb (a physical dmg based build with SS backup). I would even consider using this over Jalal's Claw. The reason is that Jalal's has a little more ed%, nice life leech, bonus to attributes, a low level req (more upgrades), and 6 open sockets (= more ed%; 90% with Iths or 150% with Jahs). Now if you had said Flood or Burlesque I wouldn't argue with you (these are where I plan to go once I can find a suitable base item). I would say Victory but the Vanquish animation interrupts Eagle Flight (main attack) and procs too much to be my primary weapon (which sucks b/c it would be a great weapon for a physical thrower). I do plan to use it on weapon switch with SS+Stampede to get that huge ED bonus without all the animation troubles.

.......

That nitpick aside. I do use runewords. My main problem with runewords is finding suitable base items. Sometimes it can be a major pain in the ass trying to get a good base item. Now if there was a way to get the exact number of sockets you want without a bunch of hassle (ie cubing) and wasting a bunch of materials (mainly shards since gems a easy to come by) then I would be much happier with runewords.

[Fort_Knox]

hey sry if this has been sed already, but im ont reading 70 or so posts to check if it has. I say yes, buyable runes, but only up to the stage where you dont need crafting points to up them, which is sumwhere like sheal. this would mean that low level runes are accessable for most players, and the higher runes can t just be made by buying exessive amounts of lower runes------> unless you have a spare 30 billion dollars to make a zod.

[Brother Laz]

its the simple fact that EVERYONE here ALWAYS goes for the uniques/sets/rares/crafted items BECAUSE of their empty sockets;

You know why people ALWAYS go for the uniques/[strike]sets/rares/crafted items[/strike]? Because someone here always rattles off lists with 'perfect equipment' and tells people to use this gear and no other.

And after a while, those items will hype themselves. People will use them without knowing why they are supposed to be good. In the meantime, some powerful items remain unused because no one noticed them yet. (It took people a few months to discover 'Crucible', for instance) And eventually someone will ask 'Laz, why are the items so imbalanced?'.

......

My main problem with runewords is finding suitable base items. Sometimes it can be a major pain in the ass trying to get a good base item. Now if there was a way to get the exact number of sockets you want without a bunch of hassle (ie cubing) and wasting a bunch of materials (mainly shards since gems a easy to come by) then I would be much happier with runewords.

Newly added in 1.57, these recipes gives your item a specific additional number of sockets. They add between 1 and 5 sockets to your item depending on how many identify scrolls you include.

The recipe for 6 sockets is special, requiring the reward charm from the uberlevel Island of the Sunless Sea.

weapon + Glowing Arcane Crystal + Identify scroll x[1-5] -> return weapon with 1-5 sockets
armor + Glowing Arcane Crystal + Identify scroll x[1-5] -> return armor with 1-5 sockets
weapon + Glowing Arcane Crystal + Sunless Crystal Bird -> return weapon with 6 sockets
armor + Glowing Arcane Crystal + Sunless Crystal Bird -> return armor with 6 sockets
(these recipes do not work on ethereal items)

So, you disenchant a unique, and then you get to make a free runeword.

......

I'll probably make the lower runes buyable... the only question is, what is there to prevent people from stacking -95% vendor prices, buying a few billion Els at 100 gold each, then cubing them up to Xar? It would be utterly boring, but if this is what it takes, people will do it...

[Skeleon]

They'd probably go insane before reaching Ber, thus solving the problem.

[Valherran]

I dont even see the need to buy runes seeing as how they are so commonly found in drops, but if you want to make them buyable then i would at least reccomend you make them UBER expensive, like 100k for a El Rune or something.