[Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by pza » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:14 pm

then nova shot needed nhd too. and since cascade>nova shot, cascade needed nhd too. i don't think that's a good idea.
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Post by Doabli » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:17 pm

Why? I don't see a point there. aerial was right about Barrage. It's overpowered. Nova Shot can't be spammed, and it is only useful close range (adding even 1 frame of NHD will ruin it instantly) . Cascade shoots one arrow per target, so adding NHD is useless.
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Post by nimrod » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:27 pm

Doabli";p="366126" wrote:Cascade shoots one arrow per target, so adding NHD is useless.
Not really. If there are two targets behind another target, that single target will take x3 damage. With NHD he will only be damaged once. However, I fear that adding NHD to cascade is a bad idea, because that would make it a 1 point wonder. No one will want to max it for increased range if it can only attack a monster once.

As for barrage, I don't think it's that overpowered, but it does make the other skills useless, so a nerf isn't so bad. I was thinking more in the area of making it have 1/3 damage multiplier, or lowering the range or even lowering the number of arrows that it can shoot.
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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by pza » Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:58 pm

actually barrage>buckshot, imho. and with reduced range it's still barrage>buckshot. now wraith arrow is not competing with barrage thanks to its high range. neither does ricochet, which is better in some situations than barrage, in others not. so it's really a question: how do we have to change barrage or buckshot so that both skills stop competing?

adding a nhd is not anoption, it would simply kill the skill and even wraith arrow would be better. barrage would really turn useless.
didn't laz say he'll make buckshot a meleelike skill, where the amazon runs automatically to the closest point from the monster and then start shooting buckshots? i'd see this as a big advantage to barrage. and this would mean both skills couldn't compete any more. barrage is not overpowered.
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Post by oneillz808 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:06 pm

yes he did [about the buckshot]

when it first came out, the skill didnt run up to the monster. you stayed where you were at. very difficult to use.

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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by pza » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:12 pm

are you saying that at the current patch you already run towards the enemy?? if so, i must back out from the topic and say it's fine as it is.
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Post by oneillz808 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:14 pm

yes.

and laz said he is going to change the graphic of buckshot also. [and thats good, i hated the graphic XD]

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Post by aerial » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:09 pm

Barrage vs novashot/cascade and NHD.

1. novashot and cascade cant be spammed like barrage (where number of hits gets higher untill duration of first shot ends)
2. drud is weak vs zon
3. druid is slow vs zon
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Post by oneillz808 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:12 pm

aerial what do you mean by druid is weak and slow vs zon.

do you mean the bow skills.

id rather much prefer the druids bow skills over the amazons.

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Post by nimrod » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:23 pm

aerial";p="366157" wrote: Barrage vs novashot/cascade and NHD.
1. novashot and cascade cant be spammed like barrage
I think you don't understand what spam really is, because they can be spammed.
aerial";p="366157" wrote: number of hits gets higher untill duration of first shot ends
Because they don't have a duration. :roll:
If you mean: "more points increase the number of hits per attack on barrage and not on the other two".
Well the answer to that would be:
Cascade- wrong, it does hit more times each target with more skill points
Nova {filtered}- true this patch, but in 1.57 you will be able to get more nova's per attack I think.

I still don't think adding NHD will be a good idea on barrage. It's the only skill that really can keep you safe.
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Post by Doabli » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:38 pm

The point is with Cascade you need a huge amount of targets (it shoots one arrow at each target) and positioning to make it hit more than once. For Barrage, each target is hit for HUNDREDS of times when spammed. And it can be prepared.

In paper things are hard to express, just try the 2 skills in pratice.
The problem is, while it is true that skills are strong in certain conditions, Barrage just triumps over most situation with a better result. It's like Deathstrike vs minions. In the end, Deathstrike wins.
Last edited by Doabli on Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nimrod » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:09 pm

Yes I understand what you mean.
However, just try doing kurast for example, without barrage. It's possible, but a lot harder. It's not like the bowazon is overpowered. I'm sure there are better ways of balancing barrage with the other skills, without making barrage useless. I liked laz's idea of giving a plague skill the the zon, then changing the weapon multiplier on wraith arrow to 3/2. That should balance it out in a much better way I think. However, some would argue that it would be exactly like plague-> not original.
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Post by oneillz808 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:15 pm

all around the skills of the medians, there is reinterpreted versions of it.

death metal - blade barrier
nightmare - slow
deathstrike - flamestrike
nova shot - cataclysm

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Post by Doabli » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:20 pm

nimrod" wrote:It's possible, but a lot harder.
That's what unbalanceness is about. :mrgreen: If it doesn't work at all, it's either broken or bugged. If it can be done, but harder, it's unbalanced.
However I think I'll end this discussion here.
nimrod" wrote:However, some would argue that it would be exactly like plague-> not original.
Yeah it's pretty bad that way. But poison is probably the only solution.

2 different chars require 2 different tactics. Same skills may prove to have different usage depending on the way you use it.
Last edited by Doabli on Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by aerial » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:41 pm

I ment that nova shot / cascade cant be spammed LIKE barrage. When you compare number of missiles released per frame ect.
Second argument was fact that druid is weaker (less defense and life), and is lot slower than zon. That was my response against logic - barrage gains nhd -> cascade/novashot should have it too. Imo barrage is overpowered in zon hands, but druid bow skills are not, since this character is very fragile.

Btw eot - it was thread about build ;p
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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by Brother Laz » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:30 pm

pza";p="366132" wrote:actually barrage>buckshot, imho. and with reduced range it's still barrage>buckshot.
The point of Buckshot is not to do high damage to everything near you, but to wtfkill a single target in the face with x15 damage. Barrage doesn't do that.

......
Doabli";p="366162" wrote:The point is with Cascade you need a huge amount of targets (it shoots one arrow at each target) and positioning to make it hit more than once. For Barrage, each target is hit for HUNDREDS of times when spammed. And it can be prepared.
Actually I believe most people use Cascade to snipe from 60 yards away. There is Nova Shot for melee.

......
oneillz808";p="366167" wrote:death metal - blade barrier
Have you ever used Blade Barrier?

......
Doabli";p="366168" wrote:Yeah it's pretty bad that way. But poison is probably the only solution.
We have 7 different bow skills, each about as different as they come: straight line damage through walls, straight line damage w/ self-buff, fire and forget wide field area damage, PBAE high damage, melee range instant kill, semi-random area effect, and high damage near walls at a distance.

Still, some ended up more powerful than others in most circumstances. I've given up attempting to balance 7 different skills that serve the same purpose; so might as well divide them among two builds (pinprick spam physical, and single strong hit poison). This looks like the only way to make things like Ghost Arrow useful.

......
aerial";p="366170" wrote:I ment that nova shot / cascade cant be spammed LIKE barrage. When you compare number of missiles released per frame ect. Second argument was fact that druid is weaker (less defense and life), and is lot slower than zon.
The difference is supposed to be that druids have minions and amazons have speed and HCMTF. (Of course, amazons get to be tanks with Paragon, and it seems that most people consciously ignore Charm)
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Post by oneillz808 » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:34 pm

yes i have used blade barrier. i said it before in another thread that it was basically a castable version of death metal.

the graphics are the same and both have nhd if im not mistaken.

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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by pza » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:15 pm

if a zon can kill all monsters of a mob in 5 seconds, druid using charm can't. he has to wait at least 10 seconds for charm to go over. and that sums up with every new mob you get into. charm is only good if a fight rests longer than 10 seconds and that's not often the case. that's why people don't use it.
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Post by Doabli » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:15 am

Brother Laz" wrote:Actually I believe most people use Cascade to snipe from 60 yards away. There is Nova Shot for melee.
I do believe so . (I just can't imagine how patient I can to line up 60 monsters and use Cascade just to hit initial target for 60 hits like nimrod ;) ) .
Brother Laz" wrote:Still, some ended up more powerful than others in most circumstances. I've given up attempting to balance 7 different skills that serve the same purpose; so might as well divide them among two builds (pinprick spam physical, and single strong hit poison). This looks like the only way to make things like Ghost Arrow useful.
I use Ghost Arrow a lot. On my Barb who doesn't have any other oskills. :P
I'll just accept it that way. ;)
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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by xMeox » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:00 am

buckshot doesnt work with just klicking on the monster...
or maby, it works, but not very well... with the stand and attack trick (klicking far away behind the monster) much more missiles could hit...

btw, i realy would like to see the normaly DM without NHD :mrgreen: , but in fact, this would be more imba than barrage². maby you remove the NHD and only gives DM 1/4 weapon damage?
Last edited by xMeox on Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Skivverus » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:07 am

I remember Laz saying some time ago that the reason Death Metal has NHD is because each of those spikes you see has another seven directly underneath it, which means removing NHD would be horribly imbalanced with procs almost regardless of the damage multiplier.

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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by xMeox » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:31 am

maby just make the NHD shorter?

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Re: [Guide] The Death Metal Amazon

Post by pza » Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:42 am

7 underneath them???!! can't this be changed?? i'd .ove to see the nhd removed. i always wondered why ds didn't rock that much than expected...
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Post by Brother Laz » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:37 pm

No, of course it can't be changed. (If it could, I'd have) Now you know why Deathcore lags, by the way.
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Post by Borgin » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:22 pm

I tried a Deathcore Zon a while back, with one major difference:

I used Crossbows.
Sure, they only have a 40% STR bonus, but when you can just stack insane +strength gear and forget about dex, the damage on them is quite a bit better.

Base damage on a perfect superior Sacred Repeating Crossbow: 352-408.

Damage on a perfect superior Sacred Repeating Crossbow with the runeword "Curse" in it: 792-1188.

Character damage with perfect superior Sacred Repeating Crossbow with the runeword "Curse" in it and 1,500 Strength (including the 30% Strength bonus from "Curse"): 6970-10454.

Damage of a level 15 Punisher (proc on "Curse" runeword) at clvl 120 with minimal +% poison skill damage: 24363-48727 damage per second.

Extra Total Character Damage (skill ED%) from Bloodlust, with 20 points in Death Coil: ~400% ED% and 100% Spell damage (unverified, I've never been able to max it)

Final total damages:

Weapon Damage: 34850-52270.
Weapon Damage using Death Metal: 17425-26135.

Punisher Proc Damage: 48727-97454 per second.

Assuming my math is right. This doesn't include Black Arrows at all, it doesn't include any equipment slots besides the weapon, and it doesn't include any other skill investments besides Bloodlust, Death Coil (as a synergy), and Death Metal.

With a maxed Death Metal, I'm assuming you can get >100 spikes. Meaning that if every spike hits, you're virtually guaranteed a Punisher proc off your weapon. Likewise, you can equip two Xorine's Rings for even crazier poison damage, if you like, or two Earth Rousers for Tremor. Or two Ripstars for more damage and some DS.

It's just my personal preference to play this build with Crossbows, though. Almost the same exact principles apply if you want to use bows- you just have to invest in Dexterity, which is honestly something I don't enjoy doing.

--Borgin

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