Poison damage explained

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Post by enkephalin07 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:31 am

[quote=DemonicAngel";p="357982"]Understand? :-|[/quote]
Logically, no. Mechanically, yes. If Blizzard is willing to throw logic out the window and go with what works, then by god, so am I.

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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by Incompetent » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:13 am

[quote=nimrod";p="357775"]Poison damage explained[/quote]

Good guide. Here's what I've heard about poison damage on weapons:

- There are two kinds of poison source for weapon attacks, as you say:

Type 1 is standard poison source
Type 2 is bonus poison source

The game only uses total damage for display purposes, ie in order to confuse you. What actually gets calculated for the purposes of dealing damage to things is the rate of damage and the duration.

The formula for poison damage rate on your weapon attacks is: add up the rates from all sources.

The duration formula is: add up durations on all sources, and divide by the number of standard sources (if you have no standard sources, divide by 1). So if you have two standard sources each lasting 5 seconds, and a bonus source lasting 4 seconds, the total duration is (4+5+5)/2 = 7 seconds. This then gets multiplied by any increased poison/cold/curse duration you have (I think).

Standard sources include: socketables, equipped items/charms (I can't remember if each item/charm is a source, or each mod on it), and any skill Laz has configured to work like item poison damage.

Bonus sources in cLoD included Poison Dagger and pre-1.10 Venom (after that, Venom got given a special duration override in order to make it useless for serious poisoners). Scorpion Blade is basically a thrown version of Poison Dagger, so it's a bonus source.

I don't know about other skills, though Laz probably does.

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Post by nimrod » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:44 am

Thanks.
I can't remember if each item/charm is a source, or each mod on it
You can have two mods on the same item that both do poison damage? :-| I don't think that kind of item exists.
Scorpion Blade is basically a thrown version of Poison Dagger, so it's a bonus source.
I do have one more question about this skill. When adding the duration, do you add all sources of duration or the average of all sources of duration?
For example: My scorpion blade does 100 damage per second over 10 seconds. I have 1 item that gives 100 damage per second over 1 second, and another that gives 10 damage per second over 10 seconds.
Will the damage be:
(100+100+10)*(10+1+10)=210*21=4410
or will it be:
(100+100+10)*[(10+1):2+10]=210*15.5=3255
I hope you understand the question.
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Post by enkephalin07 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:28 pm

[quote=nimrod";p="360235"]Actually, poison is spell damage (for example, the increased spell damage from MotW increases the damage of poison spells).
The weird thing is that spell damage also affects things that aren't even spells like scorpion blade. I beleive I've explained this in my "poison damage explained" post. Just search for it and read it, it has everything about poison damage (not including this new feature though, but I will add it).[/quote]Guess there is still more to explain; you say that +spell% damage is applied to scorp blade, but I could've sworn I'd read another thread where that was denied. And it's not reported on the CS when I add on more +spell%, though I understand that's to be taken with a grain of salt.

How about total character damage %; wouldn't that also multiply scorp and WotS damage? Again, the CS doesn't report any increase in damage for that.
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Post by nimrod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:21 pm

[quote=enkephalin07";p="360310"][quote=nimrod";p="360235"]Actually, poison is spell damage (for example, the increased spell damage from MotW increases the damage of poison spells).
The weird thing is that spell damage also affects things that aren't even spells like scorpion blade. I beleive I've explained this in my "poison damage explained" post. Just search for it and read it, it has everything about poison damage (not including this new feature though, but I will add it).[/quote]Guess there is still more to explain; you say that +spell% damage is applied to scorp blade, but I could've sworn I'd read another thread where that was denied. And it's not reported on the CS when I add on more +spell%, though I understand that's to be taken with a grain of salt.[/quote]
+spell damage% and +poison damage% both increase all the poison types (even if they are items). The only exception (and hence the confusion) is that item poison damage 1 is not affected by +spell damage when it is applied with missiles.

In other words, plague, snake stance andWotS are affected by +spell poison damage, but only if used in melee. Scorpion blade is item poison damage 2, and so it should be affected by +%spell damage.

[quote=enkephalin07";p="360310"]
How about total character damage %; wouldn't that also multiply scorp and WotS damage? Again, the CS doesn't report any increase in damage for that.
[/quote]
Total damage% is the same thing as the enhanced damage you get from strength/dexterity. In other words, it only applies to your physical weapon carrying skills. It has no effect on WotS, but it will increase the physical damage from scorpion blade (however, the increase is so small that it's very hard to notice a difference).
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Post by enkephalin07 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:35 pm

WotS gives a +poison% and a 'damage to weapon' amount. Understand the second value would be applied to melee and bare fists, but which of these are applied to scorp?

Also, is the CS wholly misleading? The min dam shown is 2.6million, only 217k over the base listed on the skillsheet. That doesn't seem consistent with any of the modifiers; WotS is only 36k min dam, I'm wearing 127% +poison, shadowblade should be contributing 252%. If WotS is contributing the percentage (95%), the final would be 15 Million min damage. If it's contributing the given range, min dam would be a meager 12.5 million (roughly). Is this correct?
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Post by nimrod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:47 pm

[quote=enkephalin07";p="360338"]WotS gives a +poison% and a 'damage to weapon' amount...which of these are applied to scorp?
[/quote]
Both, scorpion blade is affected by the +poison damage% and also from the added poison damage.


[quote=enkephalin07";p="360338"]
'damage to weapon' would be applied to melee and bare fists[/quote]
No, it would be applied to anything that carries weapon damage (all attack skills, including scorpion blade).

[quote=enkephalin07";p="360338"]
Also, is the CS wholly misleading? The min dam shown is 2.6million, only 217k over the base listed on the skillsheet. That doesn't seem consistent with any of the modifiers; WotS is only 36k min dam, I'm wearing 127% +poison, shadowblade should be contributing 252%. If WotS is contributing the percentage (95%), the final would be 15 Million min damage. If it's contributing the given range, min dam would be a meager 12.5 million (roughly). Is this correct?[/quote]
All the +%poison damage is already calculated in the listed damage of scorpion blade. The 217k damage increase in the character screen is just the added duration that you get from WotS which is not calculated in the skill description.
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Post by enkephalin07 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:03 pm

That's much less, but it's still a sick amount of damage. Too sick to be allowed to PvP. A player with max resistance would still take a little under 7k/sec, for more seconds than you can carry rejuves on your belt.
EAKS players often live by the phrase 'The journey is often more enjoyable than the destination.' They are motivated by meeting the challenges of the world, but they are usually in no rush--because seeing the creatures and places of the world is even more fun.

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Post by nimrod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:28 pm

enkephalin07" wrote:That's much less, but it's still a sick amount of damage. Too sick to be allowed to PvP. A player with max resistance would still take a little under 7k/sec, for more seconds than you can carry rejuves on your belt.
Of course, but trying to actually hit with scorpion blade is hard...

*Added some information about the missile-spell damage thing.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by bribot » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:35 pm

thanks for the thread nimrod. the last few posts really clarified poison damage for me.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by nimrod » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:54 pm

[quote=bribot";p="360353"]thanks for the thread nimrod. the last few posts really clarified poison damage for me.[/quote]
No, thank you. Now I can sleep well at night, knowing that I could help someone with this thread. :rightthumb:






I still think Laz should make a sticky called "median mechanics explained" and include in there a link to this thread, the "drop rates explained" thread, and the "grades do what now" thread.
Last edited by nimrod on Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by enkephalin07 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:44 pm

[quote=nimrod";p="360352"]Of course, but trying to actually hit with scorpion blade is hard...[/quote]I haven't found it to be hard, but against 20k+ defense it might be. Even with +60% attack speed, it might still be difficult. And that's just assuming the 10.6 sec stun doesn't work on players. But then again, I've gotten lucky hits against the toughest marks.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by Skeleon » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:30 pm

Okay, so if I use Retaliate with, say, Enyo, the Acid Trance Aura would only improve my actual strike's poison damage, but not the resulting nova?

And the displayed damage is total nonsense, right? Because when I equip an item with +%spell damage, my displayed damage severely jumps upwards when using Silver Dart (which doesn't have any melee component). But since it's a missile, it doesn't really count?
Man, I hate that display.
I actually wanted to get myself Corruption, but if the ATA doesn't help at all with missile attacks, where's the point?

Would Vanquish's bonus elemental damage work on Retaliate's nova/Silver Dart's missiles? Or is that basically the same as +%spell damage and therefore wouldn't?
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by pza » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:52 pm

doesn't work. same as with kraken/snakestance + fortress, afaik.

not only that, retaliate shows 3/4x weapon damage and the charscreen shows 7/4. thats right, but only for the attacked enemy. and also it's not right for poison damage. poison only works at 1x (because 3/4x is less high). is that right?
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Post by Doabli » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:07 pm

Initial swing deals x7/4 weapon component damage excluding the nova part. So it drains x7/4 poison damage correctly. Then the nova starts kicking the enemeis multiple times for x3/4 weapon damage.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by Skeleon » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:24 am

Okay, so I can forget about Corruption. :-|
But what about Vanqush with bonus elemental damage? Same thing?

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Post by nimrod » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:47 am

Yes same thing.
With missiles, you should work on getting +skills, not +spell damage.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by Skeleon » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:48 am

Crap. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Post by aerial » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:15 pm

Thats why initial target dies 10x faster than mobs hit by nova.
But if itll be fixed, all poision-weapon skills need NERF. Spellpower bonus doesnt work with missiles now - but builds based on this (barb or paladin) are most powerfull in the game. Now if itll be fixed - missile damage same as swing damage - it means huge damage buff.
Nice option is to try cautious strike barb with Ral's in whole gear, and maxed snake stance. He does ~4-5M dmage in 5s with good gear, and it kills faster than any other stance (lion or kraken). Now imagine its spread to whole screen by single click..
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by Skeleon » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:45 pm

Is that even possible to fix without hardcoding? :-|

For me, it would already be a great help if that {filtered} up display would show the true amount of damage instead of some arbitrary numbers it pulled out of its ass. But that's been a problem back in cLoD, too, so I doubt it would be possible without hardcoding, either. :(
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Post by Doabli » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:15 pm

It's possible without hardcoding , in theory : It involves rebuilding the whole mod, removing some of the skill synergy system and removes all characters (honestly) . So, it can't be fixed.
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Re: Poison damage explained

Post by pza » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:02 pm

oh, well that's the reason why my biddings about were never responded. that is totally understandable for me now, thankyou for clearing things up!
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